Ripstop weave does not help waterproofing. Nylon is no more likely to tear when punctured than any other thread. Packcloth is a weave, not another name for polyester. Polyester is stronger than cotton, not weaker. X-PAC does have fibrous strands since it is a laminate of woven fabrics.
Also I think it is somewhat confusing to list thread materials like nylon and polyester, along with brand names like Dyneema and Cordura. Most Cordura fabrics are nylon, for example.
Coatings are probably the weak point of durability for many packs. Any of the synthetic fabrics, even light weights, can easily last decades with normal use. But as the article notes, even with the best care, you won’t get much more than 15 years on the coatings. And when polyurethane goes bad, it’s gross. It smells horrible and becomes a sticky goo. It is depressing that despite decades of advancement in outdoor gear, companies are still just spraying PU on and calling it good.
The coatings are an almost complete waste of time on something with as many seams as a pack. Get a trash compactor bag, and use it as a pack liner bag. They last forever and do a better job than any woven fabric with a coating.
Bonus: they're usually white, which means you stand half a chance of being able to see the stuff in your pack. White is pretty rare except for Dyneema packs (Dyneema apparently doesn't dye).
Edited to add:
The other major failure mode for coated and laminated fabrics is when they tape the coated or laminated side. The seam tape flexes differently from the substrate fabric, which pulls at the coating or laminate. I've had coated and Goretex rain jackets fail in this way, as well as coated stuff sacks. Silnylon fares a little better because the silicone is impregnated into the nylon rather than coated on. Silnylon isn't breathable, so it isn't a mainstream material for rain gear though.
Source: GA->ME 2010 and another thousand or so miles of hiking.
I agree, I wish backpack manufacturers would just skip the coating. It would save weight and cost, and greatly extend the lifespan. I have multiple really nice packs that I can’t use due to coating grossness, despite being 100% functional otherwise.
They probably use it in part because it reduces fraying on cut fabric. Given how slippery nylon fibers are compared to natural fibers, I can see this being a huge benefit. I sewed a couple of duffel bags out of nylon and got no fraying at all on the raw edges as I was cutting and sewing.
That said, I'm guessing mostly it looks good to people who don't know better.
I'm not sure what a trash compactor bag is made of, but I imagine it's intended to be disposable.
I recommend a pack liner made of a more durable plastic, as they have a couple of advantages in emergency situations.
1) They can retain air and thus keep you buoyant if you come to grief crossing a river.
2) Assuming you're using a large pack for multi-day trips, you can use a pack liner (and in my country they're designed for this) as emergency shelter if you don't have a bivvy bag or tent.
Trash compactors work by compressing the trash to reduce its volume. Due to this pressure, trash compactor bags are designed to handle these forces. This makes them much more durable than normal trash bags.
It's a classic ultralight hiker move [0] and is commonly the first suggestion in gear shakedowns on /r/ultralight.
We do the same inside portage packs up here in Minnesota. I’m sure there is a better way (at least there should be) for securing the opening, be we always just tie a knot.
An exterior cover can’t keep the whole pack dry in heavy rain. Water can run down your back and soak into the pack that way. Things that really need to stay dry, need a sealed bag.
But you don’t need a liner for the whole pack, either. Cookware and stoves can get wet, and the tent is probably wet anyway if it is raining.
Typically only the food, sleeping bag, and clothes really need to stay dry, so you can just seal those each in their own bag. I kept those things dry for a month in the Pacific Northwest using just regular kitchen trash bags.
* Don't need to stop/remember to put the pack cover on.
* Can use them to organise different things. e.g. separate clothes from sleep kit.
* Can use them to roll/squash the air out of clothes/bedding to take up less space.
* If you need to remove things from the pack to look for items lower down they'll stay dry in their separate bags.
The trade off is a little more weight but it's generally < 100g-ish compared to a pack cover.
For me, a rain cover is a hindrance when I need to retrieve things from my pack, I have to remove it entirely, whereas a pack liner, I just need to unfurl the top of it.
Secondly, as there are very few bridges in the New Zealand back country, we frequently have to cross the channels of braided rivers. A rain cover keeps out water from above, not so much from below.
And as I mentioned in a previous comment, pack liners can, in an emergency, function as a flotation device or emergency shelter.
I have a backpack (shout out to the REI trail 25, I've put it through an absolute beating over the last 4-5 years and it still looks and works great) I use for around the town kind of things, day hikes, trail work, etc that has a rain cover. They're alright, but it's a bit of a hassle to get it out and put it on the pack, and vice versa.
It's nice if I'm biking home with the pack on and it starts raining, but I don't bother if it's going to be a short light rain.
I use both. The stuff inside the liner bag is stuff that has to remain dry (extra clothes, sleeping bag, stove and matches/lighter, etc). Anything outside the liner but still under the cover is stuff I'd prefer remains dry-ish, but can get wet. I made my cover out of Silnylon; it weighs very little compared to the added peace of mind
Indeed, my 40 year old generic nylon backpack from a sporting goods store has been my travel bag on nearly every trip I've taken, but I discovered a few years ago upon stepping out into a drenching rain, that it had lost all of its waterproofing. Oops. Now I line it with a plastic trash bag.
> is it worth paying much attention to smallish items that last 15 years?
No in the sense of emissions and garbage creation from them are negligible. But ensure you pack out everything you pack in, not washing your dish(es if you're bougie) near the water source, etc are very important principals to maintain hiking and camping conditions for whomever comes next. Because that plastic wrapper will definitely last more than 15 years.
Ah, that makes sense. I don’t usually use soap washing stuff backpacking, just a rinse and we’re off, hadn’t occurred to me that soup would be a problem.
I generally prefer waterproof dry bags for that reason. Fabrics need to be burly to remain waterproof for any significant use. Better to dry quickly, sustain wear, and protect a (more easily replaceable) waterproof liner.
This guide is great for background and basic information. It contains a lot of information that I've had to piece together myself over the years.
I am whats called a "Bikepacker", and I've made a lot of my own gear. I ride my bike (a LWB recumbent) instead of hiking; but still do the camping part like backpackers do (with the added nerd-points of using a hammock).
If you are interested in the do-it-yourself side of these hobbies I can't recommend ripstopbytheroll.com enough. There is a lot of great guides, the prices are great; and I even met the guy once (before he started the website) at a hammock get-together.
TL/DR: like a group camping trip but with hammocks.
At the time I was a member of hammockforums.net
It's a forum dedicated to hammocks, hammock camping, associated equipment, and discussions that usually relate to hammocks. There have been several "group camping" gatherings (pre-covid) in various parts of the world. At the gatherings that I attended there was 50-75 individuals all sleeping in hammocks. It was over a weekend in Indiana.
The hammock community has a lot of cottage industry involvement, and a very large portion of the group actively contributes to ideas much like the OSS community does. There was a lot community spirit. Several people (and companies) brought equipment/gear/stuff to give-away. I as one of the few Canadians to show up brought Canadian beer, chocolates, and snacks. I won an under-quilt, some hiking chop-sticks (they screw together and have a belt-attachment), and a few other things all at no cost to me ($400+ worth of gear).
So there we were 50+ hammocks all hung in the surrounding forest enjoying fellowship.
Was hoping the answer would be something like this. I absolutely adore learning about subcultures I haven’t encountered before. Thank you for an illuminating answer.
If someone is reviewing backpacks, zippers are also critical. I bought what I thought was a decent hiking pack from what we Americans call an "Army surplus store" for what seemed a good price. After a couple months two of the zippers had failed and I ended up throwing it away because I don't think there was any reasonable way to fix them. They were not YKK zippers (which I leared about) and I guess that was my mistake for not realizing that would be the point of failure. The old phrase "The poor man always pays twice." is in play here. Brands do have meaning, because they provide some assurance that the product meets some level of quality.
For what it's worth, if the rest of the pack is still good, you can often replace zippers with buttons, clasps, rivets, or another type of closure. It's worth attempting a fix if only to keep more junk out of landfills.
Synthetic polyfibers are one of the primary causes of microplastic pollution, so for fashion items they should be avoided. That Rayon material which Cordura initially represented for example is biodegradable.
We need a different category than synthetic fibers in English terminology for these altered fibers.
One additional feature you might find (it's ubiquitous on motorcycle gear) is Kevlar stitching, especially double-stitching (two or more parallel rows of stitches). The material is only as friction resistant as the stitches holding it together.
Fascinating stuff. I remember my Timbuk2 with a custom vinyl panel falling apart pretty quickly, which made me realize just how big of a deal picking the right fabric for your everyday bag is.
I've been pretty pleased with my Peak Design gear these last few years, I've yet to find a brand that makes bags that feel as well-built. They're not cheap though.
$300 is a doozy, but the quality is noticeable, and it was one of the few backpacks I saw that unzips into one big compartment which is what I want when I'm packing a bunch of clothes.
Too many backpacks seems to maximize compartment count where I don't really understand the utility and it limits what I can stuff in there. My girlfriend's Osprey pack has the same volume but is split into four compartments that can barely fit a pair of jeans.
And it also looks modest but cool. Most packs in the space make you look like you're about to go camping, there's enough of that.
The durability is a combination of fabric and how it's stitched. Good fabrics can be wasted for the sake of slightly cheaper manufacture - I've had a few backpacks like that.
If you really want to make the most of fast fashion etc. the best thing to do would be to immediately stitch in some reinforcement when you get it home. Of course, I never actually do this. The higher price items deserve their cost.
I’ll second you there, my PD 30L pack has been pretty amazing for a year now. It still looks brand new but gets used heavily about 5 days per week.
A year isn’t that much I guess, but I’m always blown away by how durable it has been. It really does look a lot like the day I got it.
Apart from being durable I love the way it looks and the overall utility is hard to beat too. While it isn’t cheap, I can’t see myself needing more from a bag or breaking this one soon enough for the cost per year to seem high relative to other bags I’ve had.
Also worth mentioning is that their customer support is second to none.
I’m just a customer for what it’s worth, not getting paid to say anything about them.
I got a Peak Design 30L when they did their Kickstarter, so I've been using it since heavily I guess Jan 2017 (although a lot less since 2020), and it's been great.
The fabric backing on bottom parts of the padding at the back of the pack has started to wear through though. I guess this is where it rubs most on my back, and I was walking maybe 5km a day with it daily for a few years.
Ah, this reminds me - I’ve walked with mine a lot too, and the only thing I can really criticize is that the shoulder straps aren’t quite what I’d like them to be. They seem a little too narrow. When my pack is light it’s not so bad, but if it’s really loaded, it gets pretty uncomfortable.
Do you know if the bag has changed much since the kickstarter? I wonder if they’ve addressed potential wear like you’ve experienced.
Regardless, 5 years is not bad for a heavily used bag!
Dyneema aka cuban fiber is my favorite for lightweight bags, although it's not perfect.
Comes in many grades down to near tissue paper thin which is great for small stuff sacks. Obviously, while impressively strong, the thin grades are weaker than the thicker ones, but still amazing.
It doesn't like abrasion, so don't drag it across rocks, easy enough; just set your bag down instead of throwing and dragging it. "Well there are situations when you need to…" just avoid getting into those situations.
I found my mini first aid kit bag is wearing thin (it's made of the tissue paper thin white color) so for my next mini first aid kit bag I'll go up one level.
Don't use it for something where lack of breathability would cause problems… it's pretty impervious to moisture.
For the thinner grades, the thread holes can be a weak spot. Thin bags need to be handled a bit more gently. Thicker grades are brutishly strong.
One of my prize bits of camping gear is my cuban fiber hammock tarp. At 12'x8', it comes in around 7-8oz. Compared to my sinylon 11'x8' at 19oz, it is remarkably lighter. Absolutely bomb proof in nasty weather with heavy winds/rain. The main drawbacks were the purchase price (ouch) when that material was first out, it is opaque enough that you wake up with sunrise, and it sounds like a drum in the rain.
I bought a North Face backpack from the outlet on Palo Alto in 1988. I still have it today.
The internal coating is failing in spots. But the worst damage was to the foam padding in the back. Gone. Turned to dust.
Unfortunately, because I bought the bag from the outlet, it’s not eligible for warranty repair.
I bought a motorcycle last year to take on trips. Not sure what luggage system I want to use, so I turned to the ol North Face and I took a razor to the backing, removed the padding materials, shoulder straps and hip belt.
Now it’s improvised moto luggage for clothes, tent, sleeping pad, tent pole.
I was fortunate to buy a Tom Bihn Brain Bag when they were, for a short time, making it in 420 Denier High-Tenacity Parapack with a Ballistic bottom. Parapack is a tough and lightweight parachute nylon common in the 1960s, but now is very rare, especially for a backpack. It's very different from ripstop etc., smooth like silk but strong. I used to wear out laptop backpacks about once a year. This bag has lasted me ten years so far and it still looks nearly new.
Would love if there were additional info on pricing (per pound, per metric), any sustainability issues (see Dark Waters for teflon [1]), and lastly ownership (are these patent protected, largest manufacthrers)
I would also really like some sort idea of just how easy or hard a material is to get odor out of.
For a while now now I’ve just had to have multiple backpacks and rotate through them when one becomes too fragrant.
If anyone has some guidance on how to get human ecology bacteria (i.e. that funky stank) out of synthetic materials that doesn’t result in smelling even worse of the cleaning agent, I’d love to hear it.
I haven't ever had an issue with stanky outdoors gear, but I've had luck removing stains from different gear by washing with either regular laundry detergent or "Oxygen-based cleaners" (oxiclean and knockoffs) as they have a different mechanism of cleaning, and drying in sunlight and fresh air.
I don’t think I’ve ever had a bag fail. Then again most of the duties are lugging a computer around. Usually I just get tired of the bag and want something new because there’s a slightly different use case where another bag is optimized for that.
But bags are like old friends. They all have personalities and are unique in their own way. I have an old Chrome messenger bag from college that’s 20 years old. It’s still going strong but I have a different bag now (still a Chrome though) which has an integrated laptop compartment. The bag is still going strong today and whenever I take it out to use it’s like talking to an old friend and retelling stories of the past.
Bags definitely acquire character. I remember realizing a few years ago that I get frequent comments on my old college messenger bag now that I never did when it was new.
I've got a dyneema backpack[0] that I can recommend, pricey but waterproof and very light. I'm not a ultralight backpacker by any means but when I am climbing big hills I appreciate the ounces saved. Bonus is the black one is fairly inconspicuous for a stealth camp.
Spectra and Dyneema are used for braided fishing line. It's scarily strong for its size, but at least in fishing, is incredibly prone to abrasion. Is this true for bags also?
Dyneema bags are light, strong (i.e., hold a heavy load), flexible, can have good water resistance and attractive colors—and will wear a hole through in one drag through an airport.
I have a Tumi backpack made of ballistic nylon and it looks brand new after ~8 years of daily use and going to various countries/vacations. I can't think of another product I own that gets regularly used and still looks the same, so it's pretty impressive and worth the $400 price tag.
I also have an older Tumi backpack and it has been great. However, I have noticed that ever since Tumi was acquired by Samsonite, the quality has gone downhill by an extreme amount. The zippers used to be made of very thick and sturdy metal, but those are gone, in favor of cheaper and flimsier zippers. The fabrics are much cheaper, thinner, and weaker now as well.
Can echo this. My first Tumi was great but failed due to user error (internal spills that were my fault). My second degraded much quicker - zips and strap stitching failed. Moved to a Victoronix, which seems to be even better than the first Tumi, but its only been in use a few years so far.
Also I think it is somewhat confusing to list thread materials like nylon and polyester, along with brand names like Dyneema and Cordura. Most Cordura fabrics are nylon, for example.
Coatings are probably the weak point of durability for many packs. Any of the synthetic fabrics, even light weights, can easily last decades with normal use. But as the article notes, even with the best care, you won’t get much more than 15 years on the coatings. And when polyurethane goes bad, it’s gross. It smells horrible and becomes a sticky goo. It is depressing that despite decades of advancement in outdoor gear, companies are still just spraying PU on and calling it good.